Minutes for November 9th, 2004

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The following minutes were adopted by the Board of Directors at their
meeting on December 7th, 2004.

1. Meeting opened at 19:00 UTC on November 9th, 2004 and took place in
#spi on irc.spi-inc.org

============

2. Roll Call

Board members in attendance [Name (nick) (role)]
- - John Georzen (CosmicRay) (President)
- - David Graham (cdlu) (Secretary)
- - Jimmy Kaplowitz (Hydroxide) (Treasurer)
- - Bdale Garbee (bdale)
- - Martin Schulze (Joey-)
- - Branden Robinson (Overfiend)
- - Ian Jackson (IanJackson)

Absent with regrets
- - Bruce Perens

Absent without regrets
- - Benjamin Mako Hill (Vice President)

Registered guests present
- - Jonathan McDowell (Noodles)
- - Drew Scott Daniels (mlots)
- - Michael Schultheiss (schultmc)
- - MJ Ray (slef)

=====================

3. President's update

John Goerzen states: "You may have noticed the meeting notice I sent out
recently. We have not been following Article Four of our bylaws very
closely, where meetings other than quarterly meetings or annual meetings
must be called specially by the President or two Board members. I'll be
doing my best to do that, and will be sending these notices to
spi-general, since it's probably the closest thing we have to something
that gets all contributing members alerted."

Quarterly meetings are January, April, July, and September.

=====================

4. Treasurer's report

No Treasurer's Report was available, however the following was discussed:

Jimmy Kaplowitz informs the board that the First IB account is not yet
open. American Express has also not closed our bank account with them at
this time.

Branden Robinson gives our account balances as $238.27 and $4759.43. The
amount of our savings account is not given.

Ian Jackson requests that the Treasurer delivers a written Treasurer's
report to the board 7 days in advance of the next meeting.

======================

5. Outstanding minutes

Minutes of October 5th, 2004:

Due to a requirement of the First Internet Bank's business policy, it is
decided that the minutes for October 5th should include the text of the
First IB corporate resolution.

On the motion, to approve the Oct. 5, 2004, minutes with the text of the
FirstIB resolutions appended:

Jimmy Kaplowitz Yes
David Graham Yes
Branden Robinson Yes
John Goerzen Yes
Ian Jackson Yes
Martin Schulze Yes
Bdale Garbee Yes

The minutes for October 5th, 2004, are approved, as amended, by a vote of
7 in favour, with none against.

===========================================================

6. Resolution 2004-10-16.iwj.1, amendment 2004-10-18.dbg.1:

There is no discussion. A vote on the amendment proceeds:

Branden Robinson Yes
David Graham Yes
John Goerzen Yes
Jimmy Kaplowitz Yes
Bdale Garbee No
Martin Schulze No
Ian Jackson No

Amendment 2004-10-18.dbg.1 is passed with 4 votes in favour to 3 votes
against.

========================================

Resolution 2004-10-16.iwj.1, as amended:

The vote proceeds on Resolution 2004-10-16.iwj.1, with no further
discussion, as amended:

Branden Robinson Yes
David Graham Yes
John Goerzen Yes
Jimmy Kaplowitz Yes
Bdale Garbee No
Martin Schulze No
Ian Jackson No

Resolution 2004-01-16.iwj.1, as amended, is passed with 4 votes in favour
to 3 votes against.

===================================================

7. Resolution 2004-10-15.dbg.1: Non-Meeting Voting:

There is no discussion prior to voting. A vote on the resolution proceeds:

26:58 <IanJackson> It's a vote to perhaps be sued by a disgruntled board member who lost an email vote.
27:02 <JimmyKaplowitz> (my abstention is because it's not clear whether that meets legalities or doesn'tmeet them)

David Graham Yes
John Goerzen Yes
Branden Robinson Yes
Martin Schulze Yes
Ian Jackson No
Jimmy Kaplowitz Abstain
Bdale Garbee Did not vote

Resolution 2004-10-15.dbg.1 is passed by a vote of 4 in favour, 1 against,
1 abstention.

Ian Jackson states that he views the resolution as a vote to be sued by a
disgruntled board member.

Jimmy Kaplowitz states that he abstains based on his concern over the
resolution meets legalities.

Branden Robinson points out that if there is a problem found with the
legalities, the resolution can be voided.

=========================================

8. 2004-10-16.dbg.1: Committee Framework:

There is no discussion. A vote on the resolution proceeds:

Ian Jackson Yes
John Goerzen Yes
David Graham Yes
Jimmy Kaplowitz Yes
Branden Robinson Yes
Martin Schulze Yes
Bdale Garbee Yes

Resolution 2004-10-16.dbg.1 passes with 7 in favour and none opposed.

========================================

9. 2004-10-28.dbg.1: Treasurer's Budget:

There is no discussion. A vote on the resolution proceeds:

Ian Jackson Yes
John Goerzen Yes
David Graham Yes
Jimmy Kaplowitz Yes
Branden Robinson Yes
Martin Schulze Yes
Bdale Garbee Yes

Resolution 2004-10-28.dbg.1 passes with 7 in favour and none opposed.

================================================

Items 10, GNUstep, and 11, OpenC++ are deferred.

====================

12. Web site updates

David Graham seeks web site admins to bring SPI's web site up to date.

Peter Palfraeder (weasel, unregistered) states that Josip Rodin is the web
site maintainer.

================

13. Next meeting

The next meeting is set for December 7th, 2004 at 19:00 UTC.

====================================

Appendix A: Current Board Membership

Date elected Name Role
[2003-03-11] John Goerzen President
[2003-03-11] Benjamin Mako Hill Vice President
[2003-11-29] David Graham Secretary
[2004-02-20] Jimmy Kaplowitz Treasurer
[2004-07-29] Bdale Garbee
[2004-07-29] Branden Robinson
[2003-11-29] Ian Jackson
[2003-03-11] Bruce Perens
[2003-11-29] Martin "Joey" Schulze

================================

Appendix B: Approved Resolutions

- -----------------------------------------------------

Resolution 2004-10-15.iwj.1: Efficient Board Meetings
- -----------------------------------------------------

1. "Resolution 2003-09-01.iwj.1: Efficient Board Meetings" is cancelled.

- -----------------------------------------------

Resolution 2004-10-15.dbg.1: Non-meeting voting
- -----------------------------------------------

This resolution supercedes 2001-11-26.iwj.1

1. WHEREAS SPI board meetings take place electronically using IRC;

2. and WHEREAS not all meeting business can take place using any single
medium;

The Board of Directors of SPI resolves that:

3. Any motion or resolution may be voted on by the board of directors as
per the following procedure:

i. All board members must be notified of the vote by means of, at
minimum, an electronic mail being sent to the board mailing list;

ii. Non-meeting vote announcements must contain the following
information:

1. The subject of the vote
2. The content of the motion or resolution
3. The date and time the vote opens
4. The date and time the vote closes

iii. In order for any motion or resolution to pass outside of a meeting,
a majority of board members must vote in favour;

iv. The authenticity of every vote must be ascertained by the Secretary,
or a designated member of the board;

v. No vote may be open for less than five days (120 hours), unless the
motion or resolution has been defeated;

4. No matter shall be put to a vote which has not been put forth for
discussion for a minimum of two days (48 hours);

5. Any board member may call a non-meeting vote;

6. No resolution or motion may be passed outside of a meeting if the Board
of Directors does not have the minimum membership required by the By-Laws
of this organisation without the affirmative vote of every board member;

7. Any resolution or motion passed under the terms of this resolution
shall have the same force and effect as if passed during a board meeting.

- ------------------------------------------------

Resolution 2004-10-16.dbg.1: Committee Framework
- ------------------------------------------------

1. WHEREAS, the day to day of the operations of a large organisation are
better managed by committees with Board oversight;

2. and WHEREAS, SPI's By-laws mandates the creation of some specific
committees;

3. and WHEREAS, SPI's Board may create committees as it sees fit;

4. and WHEREAS, all SPI committees must remain accountable to the Board of
Directors, and by extension to the Membership of this organisation;

5. and WHEREAS, Article 10 of the By-laws outline rules governing
committees;

The Board hereby resolves that:

6. Every committee shall report to the Board of Directors a minimum of
once per year on their work, membership, and status. The committee's
annual report shall be submitted to the Board at least one month prior to
the Annual Meeting, so as to be included in the President's Annual Report;

7. Committee membership shall be administered as follows, though a
committee charter may specify alternatives for any of these rules:

i. The Board shall assign the initial membership of the committee
ii. The membership of the committee shall select an initial chair
iii. The chair shall be responsible for all future committee membership
appointments
iv. The committee shall elect the chair annually following the Annual
Meeting
v. Any committee may dismiss any member of the committee by a majority
vote of the committee
vi. The Board may replace any member of the the committee at any time
vii. Membership in all committees shall be between four (4) and sixteen
(16) members and may be adjusted by either the Board or the committee
chair;
ix. Committees may select officers other than a chair at their
discretion;

8. The Board Secretary shall maintain an up-to-date list of all
committees, their memberships, and their charters and related resolutions
on the corporate website, and the chairs of all committees shall ensure
that the Board Secretary's list is up to date.

- -----------------------------------------------

Resolution 2004-10-28.dbg.1: Treasurer's Budget
- -----------------------------------------------

1. WHEREAS the Treasurer may require an allocation of money with which to
perform his duties;

The Board of Directors hereby resolves that:

2. The Treasurer shall be allocated a budget not to exceed $100 per month
to perform his duties;

3. All money spent by the Treasurer is counted against this budget in the
month in which it is spent, regardless of when it is reimbursed to the
Treasurer;

4. The Treasurer may choose to reimburse other people for expenses
incurred in assisting the Treasurer in his duties;

5. The Treasurer shall be under no obligation to spend this money;

6. Unspent monies from one month shall not carry over to the next month;

7. Money spent under the terms of this budget may only be spent in such a
way as to assist the Treasurer in his duties as the Treasurer;

8. This budget takes effect on the date of the passage of this resolution
and is effective for one year.

9. This budget may be renewed by the board of directors annually, if a
report on the previous year's expenditures and reimbursements has been
presented and is to the satisfaction of the Board.

=======================

Appendix C: Meeting Log

00:04 <CosmicRay> *GAVEL*
00:10 <CosmicRay> [item 1, opening] This meeting of the Board of Software in the Public Interest, Inc., is called to order.
00:10 <CosmicRay> PLEASE NOTE: Our agenda for today, AND all the resolutions and minutes we will be voting on, are online at:
00:10 <CosmicRay> http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/agenda/
00:10 <CosmicRay> [item 2, roll call] Board members, please state your name for the record. Others present may /msg cdlu if
00:10 <CosmicRay> you wish to be listed in the records.
00:12 <CosmicRay> We have 9 board members, so quorum for today is 6.
00:12 <cdlu> guests, /msg me your full real names please.
00:14 <CosmicRay> We have received regrets from Bruce Perens for today.
00:36 <IanJackson> We should follow Bruce's suggestion and all use our name as our nick.
00:43 <CosmicRay> John Goerzen
00:49 <bdale> Bdale Garbee
00:53 <cdlu> David Graham
00:56 <IanJackson> (Ian Jackson, obviously)
01:06 <cdlu> <Joey-> Martin Schulze
01:27 <CosmicRay> hydroxide, overfiend, mako?
01:33 <cdlu> no sign of mako
01:57 <CosmicRay> we need one more to make quorum
02:04 <bdale> the other two were afk temporarily
02:17 <Hydroxide> hi hi
02:31 <CosmicRay> there. that's Jimmy.
02:34 <CosmicRay> we are quorate.
02:42 <CosmicRay> [item 3, president's update]
02:43 <CosmicRay> You may have noticed the meeting notice I sent out recently. We have not been following Article Four of
02:43 <CosmicRay> our bylaws very closely, where meetings other than quarterly meetings or annual meetings must be called
02:43 <CosmicRay> specially by the President or two Board members. I'll be doing my best to do that, and will be sending
02:43 <CosmicRay> these notices to spi-general, since it's probably the closest thing we have to something that gets
02:44 <CosmicRay> all contributing members alerted.
02:45 <CosmicRay> Questions?
02:45 <Hydroxide> Jimmy Kaplowitz
03:30 <CosmicRay> IanJackson: it didn't occur to me to mention this until about 30 minutes ago, but I'll do better next time
03:34 <IanJackson> Thanks.
03:36 <cdlu> CosmicRay, only to note that January April July and September would logically follow as our quarterly meetings, if we assume annual and quarterly coincide
03:48 <CosmicRay> excellent.
03:51 <CosmicRay> thanks.
03:53 <CosmicRay> [item 4, treasurer's report] Jimmy and Branden, you have the floor
04:12 <Hydroxide> OK. Branden seems to be temporarily AFK, so I'll say what I know.
04:16 * IanJackson grumbles about waiting for people to type.
04:23 * cdlu grumbles about Ian grumbling
04:25 <bdale> IanJackson: chill
04:32 <Overfiend> pong
04:38 <Hydroxide> Branden and I each have partial blame for this, but the account did not get opened yet
04:39 <cdlu> Overfiend, treasurer's report in progress
- --- Hydroxide changes nick to JimmyKaplowitz
- --- Overfiend changes nick to BrandenRobinson
05:04 <JimmyKaplowitz> this is because I was waiting for Branden to give me certain personal info required by the form, but that didn't happen
05:11 * Joey- . o O ( No News is good news )
05:13 <JimmyKaplowitz> also, AmEx seems not to have closed our checking accounts yet
05:30 <JimmyKaplowitz> which is both good (since we have an account still) and bad (since they could of course close them at any moment now)
05:45 <BrandenRobinson> it's not bad in that sense; we haven't been doing any disbursements
05:49 <JimmyKaplowitz> true.
05:55 <JimmyKaplowitz> BrandenRobinson: do you have the balances now?
05:58 <Joey-> Question: What is missing to start the new accounts we agreed on last month?
06:07 <BrandenRobinson> I propose opening our new account(s) at FirstIB using the donation checks that have been accumulating
06:08 <cdlu> Joey, the cheque from centurion
06:23 <cdlu> Branden, I'm all for it, we don't need to put that to a vote I don't think
06:23 <BrandenRobinson> let's not wait on AmEx CB/FSB to give us our damn money, but demand that they do nonetheless
06:25 <Joey-> eek
06:26 <CosmicRay> JimmyKaplowitz: do you have all the info you need now?
06:34 <CosmicRay> BrandenRobinson: excelent idea.
06:39 <BrandenRobinson> I have today's balances on the FSB/CB accounts
06:47 <JimmyKaplowitz> CosmicRay: no, but I"ll make sure Branden sends it to me after the meeting, or even after the treasurer's report
06:54 <JimmyKaplowitz> BrandenRobinson: (*nudgenudge*)
07:07 <BrandenRobinson>
07:12 <BrandenRobinson> 2004-11-09
07:12 <BrandenRobinson> 238.27
07:15 <BrandenRobinson>
07:25 <BrandenRobinson> fucking screen
07:31 <BrandenRobinson> -
07:33 <BrandenRobinson> god DAMNIT
07:35 <BrandenRobinson> I HATE SCREEN
07:36 <JimmyKaplowitz> interesting balance... ;>
07:40 <bdale> BrandenRobinson: what's to prevent us from just writing a check on the old account to deposit in the new once the new is opened? when they get around to closing the account is pretty irrelevant if we have no funds there.
07:49 <BrandenRobinson> WHY THE FUCK CAN'T PEOPLE LEARN HOW THE GOD DAMN SELECTION BUFFERS IN X WORK
07:51 <BrandenRobinson> just a moment
07:59 <BrandenRobinson> 2004-11-09
08:00 <BrandenRobinson> 4759.43
08:03 <CosmicRay> bdale: it could bounce if they decide to close the old account before the check clears firstib
08:03 <JimmyKaplowitz> bdale: nothing, unless they close it after we write the check but before it clears
08:07 <IanJackson> I move we ask Branden and Jimmy to do their organisation outside the meeting.
08:30 <CosmicRay> yes, once we have the balances, will we be ready to move on?
08:35 <JimmyKaplowitz> IanJackson: right now we're just waiting for branden to give the balances
08:35 <BrandenRobinson> the balances are as above.
08:40 <BrandenRobinson> You are not, I just did.
08:42 <CosmicRay> ok, excellent.
08:46 <BrandenRobinson> 02:07PM|<BrandenRobinson>
08:46 <BrandenRobinson> 02:07PM|<BrandenRobinson> 2004-11-09
08:46 <BrandenRobinson> 02:07PM|<BrandenRobinson> 238.27
08:51 <BrandenRobinson> 02:07PM|<BrandenRobinson>
08:53 <BrandenRobinson> 02:07PM|<BrandenRobinson> 2004-11-09
08:54 <BrandenRobinson> 02:07PM|<BrandenRobinson> 4759.43
08:57 <CosmicRay> [item 5, outstanding minutes] We have minutes from October 5, 2004 to approve.
08:59 <BrandenRobinson> account number
09:00 <Joey-> Ok, let's move to the next item then.
09:00 <BrandenRobinson> date
09:02 <CosmicRay> Are we ready to vote?
09:03 <BrandenRobinson> balance is USD
09:04 <bdale> hang on
09:08 <BrandenRobinson> s/is/in/
09:19 <BrandenRobinson> I can interpret these numbers if people need.
09:20 <IanJackson> I would also like to request Branden to repeat this information in the form of a proper report, by email, to the board, at least 7 days in advance of the meeting. Let the minutes reflect my request.
09:26 <bdale> I hope nobody thinks that's a reasonable treasurer's report?
09:27 <cdlu> Branden, thanks. we have another account with more money than that, correct?
09:32 <BrandenRobinson> cdlu: yes
09:37 <cdlu> and that has?
09:59 <cdlu> Branden, also, how much do we have in oustanding cheques and paperwork?
10:02 <BrandenRobinson> IanJackson: are my snail mail reports insufficient? I ack that haven't done one lately and need to
10:13 <IanJackson> The snailmail reports are good.
10:15 <BrandenRobinson> but if you're going to start lecturing tiresomely, let's get it out on the table.
10:26 <BrandenRobinson> okay, please STFU then, I ack that I need to produce one.
10:29 <JimmyKaplowitz> IanJackson: and I haven't actually had anything to the Providence box in a while
10:52 <IanJackson> You'll agree, though, that they're not a Treasurer's report on the state of the finances.
10:57 <bdale> BrandenRobinson: it'd be fine with me if the snail mail reports mutated into treasurers reports to the board.
11:13 <BrandenRobinson> no, but they should contain sufficient information for Jimmy to prepare a treasurer's report.
11:21 <BrandenRobinson> If there's anything lacking in that respect, please say so.
11:24 <CosmicRay> obviously there is room for improvement here, like with many of our activities, but can we discuss this offline?
11:28 <BrandenRobinson> Generally, people have fuck-all to say about the snail mail reports.
11:38 <IanJackson> br: That's the usenet nod, I think.
11:53 <BrandenRobinson> instead, they just howl in the Board meetings, wasting the time that Diziet tells us is so precious.
12:06 <CosmicRay> are we ready to move on?
12:21 <CosmicRay> [item 5, outstanding minutes] We have minutes from October 5, 2004 to approve.
12:22 <BrandenRobinson> can I make a couple of observations about snail mail lately?
12:24 <cdlu> CR, I think so. Treasurers, we will have a real written report next month?
12:26 <BrandenRobinson> well, okay :)
12:27 <BrandenRobinson> too slow :)
12:35 <IanJackson> br: Can you do it by email now or later ?
12:38 <bdale> BrandenRobinson: dude. if you or Jimmy deliver a report in email, we can talk about it there. when all we get for a while is a few account balances pasted in IRC during a meeting, what do you expect?
12:38 <CosmicRay> BrandenRobinson: can you e-mail?
12:55 <BrandenRobinson> certainly, it's nothing I wouldn't cover in the snail mail roundup.
13:11 <CosmicRay> *rap rap*
13:18 <Joey-> *twiddle*
13:21 <JimmyKaplowitz> cdlu: we can do better for next meeting, I'm sure
13:25 <CosmicRay> minutes. vote. ready?
13:27 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: I acked before the meeting even began that I knew I'd done deficient reporting leading intot his meeting.
13:32 <IanJackson> I'm ready to vote on the minutes.
13:35 <cdlu> !vote start
13:35 <bolt> Starting a new vote
13:37 <IanJackson> !vote yes
13:38 <bolt> Noted yes vote from IanJackson
13:38 <JimmyKaplowitz> !vote stop
13:39 <bolt> vote result: yes. 1 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
13:42 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: I also knew I'd get spanked. Spanking acknowledged -- let's please move on :)
13:43 <JimmyKaplowitz> I have a problem with the minutes
13:44 <CosmicRay> This vote is on the Oct. 5, 2004 minutes.
13:46 <BrandenRobinson> my butt is nice and red.
13:56 <cdlu> Jimmy, ok..
14:03 <JimmyKaplowitz> the text of the FirstIB resolutions is not included, which the Corporate Resolution form seems to require
14:10 <JimmyKaplowitz> (if you look at the first paragraph)
14:23 <Joey-> shouldn't it be included in the resolution and not in the minutes?
14:26 <IanJackson> jimmy: Oh, so it is. I forgot to look for that. Well spotted.
14:46 <CosmicRay> I move we approve the Oct. 5, 2004, minutes with the text of the FirstIB resolutions appended.
14:51 * BrandenRobinson seconds
14:55 * JimmyKaplowitz agrees with that
15:00 <CosmicRay> !vote start
15:00 <bolt> Starting a new vote
15:02 <JimmyKaplowitz> !vote yes
15:02 <bolt> Noted yes vote from JimmyKaplowitz
15:04 <cdlu> Jimmy, please send me the text you want added and I'll put it in
15:06 <BrandenRobinson> !vote yes
15:06 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrandenRobinson
15:08 <cdlu> !vote yes
15:08 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
15:11 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
15:11 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
15:17 <IanJackson> !vote yes
15:17 <bolt> Noted yes vote from IanJackson
15:19 <Joey-> !vote yes
15:19 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Joey-
15:22 <bdale> !vote yes
15:22 <bolt> Noted yes vote from bdale
15:41 <CosmicRay> who are we missing?
15:43 <cdlu> !vote stop
15:43 <bolt> vote result: yes. 7 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
15:48 <CosmicRay> nobody. ok.
15:58 <CosmicRay> [item 6, efficient board meetings]
15:59 <CosmicRay> We have a resolution 2004-10-15.iwj.1 and an amendment 2004-10-18.dbg.1 before us. Standard
15:59 <CosmicRay> procedure in this case is to vote first on whether or not to amend the resolution, and then
15:59 <CosmicRay> on whether or not to accept the result. Therefore we will have two votes. The first vote is
16:00 <CosmicRay> on the amendment. Are we ready to vote?
16:11 * BrandenRobinson is.
16:16 <CosmicRay> OK.
16:19 <IanJackson> I am ready to vote. Surely everyone must have said anything they want to.
16:21 <CosmicRay> This vote is on amendment 2004-10.18.dbg.1.
16:21 <CosmicRay> !vote start
16:21 <bolt> Starting a new vote
16:22 <IanJackson> !vote no
16:23 <bolt> Noted no vote from IanJackson
16:27 <BrandenRobinson> !vote yes
16:27 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrandenRobinson
16:27 <cdlu> !vote yes
16:28 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
16:31 <bdale> !vote no
16:31 <bolt> Noted no vote from bdale
16:31 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
16:31 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
16:43 <cdlu> this is on the amendment, to be sure
16:53 <CosmicRay> cdlu: correct
16:56 <Joey-> !vote no
16:56 <bolt> Noted no vote from Joey-
16:57 <BrandenRobinson> It will be cool if Joey- is forced to cast a tie-breaking vote.
16:59 <IanJackson> Indeed so. A `yes' vote now is in favour of IRC discussion.
17:02 <JimmyKaplowitz> !vote yes
17:02 <bolt> Noted yes vote from JimmyKaplowitz
17:34 <cdlu> !vote stop
17:34 <bolt> vote result: yes. 4 yes votes, 3 no votes and 0 abstentions
17:42 * BrandenRobinson pumps his fist.
17:43 <CosmicRay> The amendment is accepted.
17:54 <CosmicRay> now we will vote on the resolution, as amended.
18:00 <CosmicRay> This vote is on the resolution 2004-10-15.iwj.1 as amended.
18:05 <CosmicRay> !vote start
18:05 <bolt> Starting a new vote
18:07 <cdlu> !vote yes
18:07 <BrandenRobinson> !vote yes
18:09 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrandenRobinson
18:09 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
18:12 <IanJackson> Ie, to abolish `Efficient Board Meetings'.
18:13 <IanJackson> !vote no
18:13 <bolt> Noted no vote from IanJackson
18:19 <Joey-> err?
18:20 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
18:20 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
18:21 <JimmyKaplowitz> !vote yes
18:21 <bolt> Noted yes vote from JimmyKaplowitz
18:30 <IanJackson> joey ?
18:35 <Joey-> if the vote was on the amandment already, why on the resolution as aell?
18:38 <Joey-> aell=well
18:39 <BrandenRobinson> I.e., the Orwellianly titled grave-accent Efficient Board Meetings apostrophe
18:50 <BrandenRobinson> Joey-: That's how parliamentary procedure works.
18:51 <IanJackson> Let's halt the vote and we can explain to Joey.
18:57 <BrandenRobinson> let's not halt it. :-/
18:58 <Joey-> Doesn't an amandment supersede the original anymore?
19:06 <BrandenRobinson> Joey-: It supersedes the TEXT.
19:09 <cdlu> Joey, no, we're voting on the amended resolution
19:11 <CosmicRay> Joey-: because we first voted to amend the resolution. Now we must vote whether to approve that resolution as amended.
19:14 <BrandenRobinson> It doesn't supersede voting on the actual resolution.
19:15 <cdlu> the amendment is not itself a resolution
19:18 <CosmicRay> Joey-: there could be any number of amendments.
19:20 <JimmyKaplowitz> Joey-: an amendment changes the original text, but the resolution in question hasn't been approved, only amended
19:30 <IanJackson> Are you clear now Joey ?
19:43 <CosmicRay> Joey-: first, we ran 'sed', now we run, uhm, tar :-)
19:46 <bdale> ok, so we're now voting on a resolution that effectively just removes the prior efficient board meetings thing, right?
19:51 <IanJackson> That's right.
19:52 <cdlu> correct
19:53 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: yes.
19:53 <CosmicRay> bdale: correct
19:55 <bdale> !vote no
19:55 <bolt> Noted no vote from bdale
20:05 <CosmicRay> is everyone clear?
20:07 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: aww, c'mon, don't believe the hype
20:07 <Joey-> Just to be clear: We first voteted on "we will amaned the resolution foo by zeroing it", now we vote on the zeroed resolution?
20:12 <JimmyKaplowitz> ok, although I don't want to stay too long
20:15 <JimmyKaplowitz> err, wrong window, heh
20:17 <IanJackson> joey: No.
20:20 <bdale> BrandenRobinson: why not? you clearly do... ;-)
20:28 <cdlu> !vote stop
20:28 <bolt> vote result: yes. 4 yes votes, 2 no votes and 0 abstentions
20:31 <cdlu> still missing one
20:32 <BrandenRobinson> Joey-: Yes; it's essentially a vote to repeal Diziet's resolution which we've never adhered to anyway.
20:43 <CosmicRay> Joey-: we first voted on "we will amend the resultion to do nothing but remove an earlier one".
20:43 <BrandenRobinson> and appear to have no plans to adhere to
20:54 <IanJackson> Joey: First we voted on s/strengthen "efficient board meetings"/abolish "efficient board meetings/
20:54 <JimmyKaplowitz> Joey-: no, we amended resolution foo such that it would zero resolution bar, and now we're voting on resolution foo, which if approved would zero resolution bar
21:02 <Joey-> So, what is the vote about? The 16 dot plan or the 1 dot plan?
21:06 <bdale> to be clear, I'm not entirly happy with the idea of legislating such things. I think striking the existing resolution out of hand isn't necessarily going to help anything, though.
21:09 <IanJackson> Now we must vote on whether to execute abolish "efficient board meetings"
21:34 <IanJackson> Legislating such things seems to be the only way to get people to obey them.
21:39 <CosmicRay> Joey-: a yes vote now means to abolish the earlier "efficient board meetings" rules. A no vote now means to keep them in place.
21:42 <BrandenRobinson> except that's clearly not true
21:48 <BrandenRobinson> 1) We've never followed Ian's procedure.
21:53 <IanJackson> We have, largely.
21:55 <cdlu> CR, Joey's vote cannot change the result, fwiw.
21:56 <BrandenRobinson> 2) We've never seriously enforced the meeting attendance policy.
22:03 <CosmicRay> *rap rap* we've discussed this in e-mail already.
22:06 <bdale> so the vote is already decisive, right?
22:06 <IanJackson> Until very recently (change of board members) things were much bettter.
22:12 <IanJackson> bdale: No.
22:13 <CosmicRay> cdlu: yes, but I want to offer him the chance to be on record if he wishes.
22:17 <CosmicRay> Joey-: do you wish to cast a vote?
22:22 <IanJackson> If we vote `no' now, then the Efficient Board Meetings remains as it previously was.
22:36 <JimmyKaplowitz> IanJackson: no, there is already a majority of present members voting 'yes'
22:38 <BrandenRobinson> Yeah, until very recently, we frequently had board meetings where so few people showed up we couldn't manage a quorum.
22:47 <bdale> IanJackson: I mean the currently running second vote already has been decided.
22:52 <BrandenRobinson> So we sucked so bad we couldn't even vote to boot people off per the attendance policy.
22:52 <IanJackson> bdale: That's true.
22:55 <Joey-> I am unable to understand anyway
23:00 <CosmicRay> OK.
23:03 <Joey-> I have no idea what we are voting on.
23:04 <CosmicRay> The amended resolution is accepted.
23:06 <Joey-> > So, what is the vote about? The 16 dot plan or the 1 dot plan?
23:12 <Joey-> or something else?
23:23 <bdale> Joey-: the 1 dot plan has been accepted.
23:25 <CosmicRay> <CosmicRay> Joey-: a yes vote now means to abolish the earlier "efficient board meetings" rules. A no vote now means to keep them in place.
23:26 <BrandenRobinson> What's a "16 dot plan"? Is Joey- in the same universe as the rest of us?
23:40 <BrandenRobinson> oh, he means bullet points.
23:42 <JimmyKaplowitz> BrandenRobinson: maybe he means 'paragraphs'
23:49 <IanJackson> The one dot plan, then.
23:52 <Joey-> then my vote is no as well, of course
24:07 <Joey-> !vote no
24:07 <IanJackson> Damn Bruce for not showing up. He would have been sensible.
24:07 <bolt> Noted no vote from Joey-
24:09 <cdlu> !vote stop
24:10 <bolt> vote result: yes. 4 yes votes, 3 no votes and 0 abstentions
24:12 <IanJackson> Now we're all dooomed.
24:14 <CosmicRay> ok. everyone has voted, and the amended resolution is accepted.
24:17 <CosmicRay> moving on.
24:22 <CosmicRay> [item 8, committee framework]
24:22 <CosmicRay> We have resultion 2004-10-16.dbg.1 pending. Are we ready to vote?
24:24 <cdlu> Ian, we're all doomed as long as you try and legislate stupid procedure :)
24:26 * BrandenRobinson laughs.
24:31 <bdale> IanJackson: I presume you'll propose an alternative again at some point.
24:37 <Joey-> We're doomed anyway...
24:41 <BrandenRobinson> bdale: yes, every month until his term expires
24:44 * bdale ^5's Joey-
24:46 <IanJackson> bdale: Not for a while. It's rude to keep re-forcing votes.
24:49 <CosmicRay> *gavel*
24:50 <JimmyKaplowitz> cosmicray: wait, that skips an agenda item
25:05 <IanJackson> 2-hour, 3-hour, 4-hour board meetings here we come.
25:05 <CosmicRay> JimmyKaplowitz: good catch. I'll get back to it. thanks.
25:09 <cdlu> CosmicRay, 15.1 yeah
25:28 * IanJackson watches paint dry.
25:30 <CosmicRay> [item 7, non-meeting voting]
25:30 <CosmicRay> We have a resolution 2004-10-15.dbg.1 pending. Are we ready to vote?
25:45 <IanJackson> I'm ready to vote. My comments were made by email earlier.
25:47 <CosmicRay> This vote is on 2004-10-15.dbg.1.
25:48 <CosmicRay> !vote start
25:48 <bolt> Starting a new vote
25:53 <IanJackson> !vote no
25:53 <bolt> Noted no vote from IanJackson
25:54 <cdlu> !vote yes
25:54 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
25:56 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
25:57 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
26:01 <JimmyKaplowitz> !vote abstain
26:01 <bolt> Noted abstain vote from JimmyKaplowitz
26:22 <BrandenRobinson> !vote yes
26:22 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrandenRobinson
26:40 <CosmicRay> 2 more...
26:41 <BrandenRobinson> Remember: a vote for 2004-10-15.dbg.1 is a vote for more efficient Board meetings!
26:54 <Joey-> !vote yes
26:55 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Joey-
26:58 <IanJackson> It's a vote to perhaps be sued by a disgruntled board member who lost an email vote.
27:02 <JimmyKaplowitz> (my abstention is because it's not clear whether that meets legalities or doesn'tmeet them)
27:11 <JimmyKaplowitz> (similar to ian ... but I do like the idea from a convenience standpoint)
27:14 <bdale> IanJackson: where were your comments posted? I don't see them.
27:20 <IanJackson> spi-board, spi-general.
27:28 <IanJackson> About a week ago, and again today.
27:31 <CosmicRay> !vote stop
27:32 <bolt> vote result: yes. 4 yes votes, 1 no votes and 1 abstentions
27:37 <JimmyKaplowitz> in any case, that passes.
27:40 <cdlu> Ian, we could possibly be sued over having IRC meetings, too.. you know some idiot is suing a railroad company for getting hit by a train while trespassing? you can get sued for *anything*.
27:49 <CosmicRay> the resolution passes.
27:54 <CosmicRay> [item 8, committee framework]
27:56 <BrandenRobinson> If the bylaws committee finds that the resolution is incompatible with our legal obligations, then the resolution can be voided.
27:57 <CosmicRay> We have resultion 2004-10-16.dbg.1 pending. Are we ready to vote?
27:59 <Joey-> cdlu: Only in the wonderful US
28:02 <bdale> ah, I see, my list filter is putting it all in spi-general when things are cross-posted. damn.
28:09 <Joey-> But then again, SPI is registrated in the US...
28:10 <cdlu> Joey, happens to be where we're incorporated
28:19 * cdlu is
28:25 <CosmicRay> This vote is on 2004-10-16.dbg.1.
28:25 <CosmicRay> !vote start
28:26 <bolt> Starting a new vote
28:29 <IanJackson> !vote yes
28:29 <bolt> Noted yes vote from IanJackson
28:30 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
28:30 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
28:30 <cdlu> !vote yes
28:30 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
28:33 <JimmyKaplowitz> !vote yers
28:33 <BrandenRobinson> !vote yes
28:33 <bolt> Usage: !vote (start|stop|yes|no|abstain)
28:33 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrandenRobinson
28:35 <JimmyKaplowitz> !vote yes
28:35 <bolt> Noted yes vote from JimmyKaplowitz
28:37 <BrandenRobinson> GAR
28:38 <Joey-> !vote yes
28:38 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Joey-
28:38 <cdlu> woah, ian and I voted the same on something? :)
28:45 <BrandenRobinson> oh, that was Jimmy, not me
28:47 <bdale> !vote yes
28:48 <bolt> Noted yes vote from bdale
28:51 <CosmicRay> !vote stop
28:52 <bolt> vote result: yes. 7 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
28:56 <CosmicRay> the resolution is adopted.
29:01 <CosmicRay> [item 9, treasurer's budget]
29:01 <CosmicRay> We have resolution 2004-10-28.dbg.1 pending.]
29:01 <CosmicRay> Is there any discussion?
29:21 <JimmyKaplowitz> I think it's been discussed enough via email
29:22 <cdlu> Hydroxide, Overfiend, any problem with the budget resolution?
29:32 <BrandenRobinson> cdlu: Not from me.
29:35 <JimmyKaplowitz> it's fine with me
29:37 <CosmicRay> This vote is on 2004-10-28.dbg.1.
29:37 <CosmicRay> !voet start
29:41 <JimmyKaplowitz> !vote yes
29:41 <bolt> Noted yes vote from JimmyKaplowitz
29:43 <cdlu> !vote yes
29:43 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
29:45 <IanJackson> !vote yes
29:45 <bolt> Noted yes vote from IanJackson
29:45 <CosmicRay> wait
29:46 <BrandenRobinson> uh
29:48 <CosmicRay> !vote start
29:48 <bolt> Starting a new vote
29:50 <BrandenRobinson> I think this is the wrong vote
29:53 <Joey-> !vote yes
29:53 <bolt> Noted yes vote from Joey-
29:54 <cdlu> !vote yes
29:54 <bolt> Noted yes vote from cdlu
29:54 <JimmyKaplowitz> yeah, revote
29:56 <JimmyKaplowitz> !vote yes
29:56 <bolt> Noted yes vote from JimmyKaplowitz
29:57 <BrandenRobinson> !vote yes
29:57 <bolt> Noted yes vote from BrandenRobinson
29:59 <bdale> !vote yes
30:00 <bolt> Noted yes vote from bdale
30:02 <CosmicRay> !vote yes
30:03 <bolt> Noted yes vote from CosmicRay
30:23 <CosmicRay> !vote stop
30:23 <bolt> vote result: yes. 6 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
30:27 <BrandenRobinson> hmm, that bot shouldn't allow voting when the state is not started
30:38 <cdlu> branden, the bot allows vote ending repeatedly
30:38 <IanJackson> !vote yes
30:38 <bolt> Noted yes vote from IanJackson
30:39 <CosmicRay> the resolution is accepted.
30:39 <cdlu> which is handy
30:39 <BrandenRobinson> doesn't anyone throw exceptions anymore?
30:43 <CosmicRay> !vote stop
30:43 <bolt> vote result: yes. 7 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
30:44 <cdlu> !vote stop
30:44 <bolt> vote result: yes. 7 yes votes, 0 no votes and 0 abstentions
30:52 <CosmicRay> [item 10, GNUstep]
30:52 <CosmicRay> This resolution has been deferred pending discussion with the FSF.
30:52 <CosmicRay> Is there anything else to add?
30:54 <JimmyKaplowitz> BrandenRobinson: I think"!vote stop" does nothing but report the current totals -- i.e., no state change. "!vote start" is the only thing that changes state, by clearing the vote totals
30:56 <bdale> BrandenRobinson: it's a hack so you can use stop to see the progress
31:01 <BrandenRobinson> okay
31:05 <cdlu> CosmicRay, it's before the FSF and will be handled next meeting
31:09 <IanJackson> br: Exceptions ? Error messages ? This is _IRC software_.
31:13 <CosmicRay> OK. excellent.
31:15 <CosmicRay> [item 11, OpenC++]
31:15 <CosmicRay> This item has been deferred pending further communication from OpenC++.
31:17 <BrandenRobinson> I guess this is why we have human eyeballs around.
31:23 <CosmicRay> [item 12, web site updates] David, you have the floor.
31:24 <cdlu> similar deal, waiting for a reply to Ian's message
31:25 <cdlu> ok
31:34 <cdlu> Joey, thank you for doing the updates you have done
31:37 <cdlu> there are a lot left to do
31:39 <slef> Any questions about GNUstep, please ask me after meeting close.
31:51 <IanJackson> slef: Willdo.
31:51 <cdlu> who here has access and is willing to do the updates, besides Joey?
31:51 <BrandenRobinson> cdlu: and everyone else sucks, right? :)
32:05 <cdlu> it should not take us months to get resolutions up
32:06 <BrandenRobinson> I have access and have done updates before, though it has been a while since I did a commit.
32:10 <CosmicRay> weasel?
32:11 <cdlu> all resolutions really *should* be up before the next meeting
32:14 <weasel> CosmicRay?
32:22 <CosmicRay> weasel: do you have access to www stuff?
32:29 <IanJackson> Can I ask that the `standing' resolutions, like the new committee framework and treas. budget etc., be put together in one place.
32:29 * BrandenRobinson wonders if cvs up even still works on purcel
32:32 <weasel> possibly, but I'm certainly not spi's web person.
32:39 <IanJackson> I mean, separate from the stuff of limited life-expectancy.
32:41 <cdlu> who *is*, officially?
32:43 <CosmicRay> weasel: ok, fair enough.
32:47 <Joey-> Branden, why shouldn't it?
32:51 <weasel> Joy is as "official" is it gets
32:51 <BrandenRobinson> yup, it does.
32:56 <JimmyKaplowitz> if I didn't have a compressed academic workload right now in preparation for going to a USENIX conference next week, I would be able to do it, but I can't do it
33:07 <JimmyKaplowitz> there is no "official", although yes, Joy has done the lion's share of it
33:15 <IanJackson> Very helpful of him, too.
33:23 <JimmyKaplowitz> indeed
33:31 <cdlu> ok
33:43 <cdlu> CR, I have nothing more
33:47 <IanJackson> If we need more effort and don't have it ourselves, we can ask for a volunteer. I'm sure we could find one ...
33:49 <cdlu> CR, just want to get it on the table that tehse updates need doing.
33:50 <CosmicRay> OK.
34:00 <BrandenRobinson> cdlu: If you'd like to delegate something out to me on a piecemeal basis, I volunteer for that.
34:00 <CosmicRay> [item 13, next meeting] Our next meeting would be December 4, 2004 at 19:00UTC. Are there any objections?
34:01 <cdlu> Ian, like we could find moderators for all our lists :)
34:05 <BrandenRobinson> but I ...well, nevermind
34:08 <IanJackson> cdlu: Why don't we take it to email and see if we can organise it offline ?
34:09 <cdlu> Branden, subscribe to spi-www, I send it all there
34:14 <BrandenRobinson> I already am.
34:17 <IanJackson> cdlu: That's more of a thankless task.
34:33 <cdlu> CR, December 14th is good here
34:33 <IanJackson> I /must/ get around to finishing that moderation signature checking software.
34:37 <IanJackson> Fine by me.
34:41 <cdlu> 4th rather
34:43 <cdlu> not 14th
34:45 <CosmicRay> cdlu: Dec. 4
34:52 <CosmicRay> OK, hearing none:
34:53 <cdlu> yeah, finger slip :)
34:57 <CosmicRay> [closing] We are adjourned until Dec. 7, 2004, at 19:00UTC.
34:58 <CosmicRay> *GAVEL*

- ---
David Graham, SPI Secretary
cdlu(at)spi-inc(dot)org D5F45889

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