Re: Board Meeting Reminder for Tue Jan 7th, 20:00 UTC

Hello,

Presumably there is to be a board meeting this Tuesday, at the usual time;
but there doesn't seem to have been an announcement yet.

So, the meeting should take place on #spi on irc.oftc.net, at 2003-01-07
20:00 UTC. The meeting will probably be closed or adjourned by 21:00
UTC. As Nils appears to still be a member of the board, the quorum for
conducting business remains at six of the eight board members.

The agenda of things for discussion is probably something like:

1. Approving minutes of last meeting
2. Report from the treasurer (Branden)
3. Removal of Nils from the board
4. Resolution 2002-12-17.wta.1: Charter for the bylaws committee
5. New board members
6. eCos Membership
7. Tax writeoffs / OFTC
8. Listing in United Way
9. Accepting Sincere Choice
10. Copyright assignment (Martin Michlmayr)

Wichert, could you as secretary please make an announcement like this
(indicating time, location and agenda for the meeting -- ideally with
more information on the individual points than there is above) both a
week and two hours in advance of board meetings in future? For those of
us not on the board list, it's very difficult to see what, if anything,
is going on, without regular reports and announcements from the board.

Ean, as VP, could you please ensure that things keep moving ahead? In
particular, why have the board failed to remove Nils from its number?

On Wed, Dec 25, 2002 at 11:26:22PM +0100, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
> The following plan of action was agreed upon, through consensus:
> 1) Ask Nils to step down as board president, and instead serve as Advisor
> or Emeritus
> The following time line for the above action plan was agreed upon, through
> consensus:
> o Immediately carry out 1)
> Any required resolutions for this action plan will be carried out via email votes.

Note that the failure of the board to meet quorum at any time during
October, November or December puts it in technical violation of the
requirement in the by-laws that regular meetings shall be held quarterly.

Cheers,
aj

--
Anthony Towns <aj(at)humbug(dot)org(dot)au> <http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/>
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

``Australian Linux Lovefest Heads West''
-- linux.conf.au, Perth W.A., 22nd-25th January 2003

On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 07:10:40PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> As Nils appears to still be a member of the board, the quorum for
> conducting business remains at six of the eight board members.

I thought the idea was that Nils was entirely removed from the board as
of last December 31, but now that I reviewed his actual words, I don't
think it's specified either way. Can someone who knows better clarify
what was intended (and, if it's any different, what actually happened)?

(For reference, if Nils is no longer on the board, the quorum is five
instead of six.)

- Jimmy Kaplowitz
jimmy(at)debian(dot)org

On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 04:52:18AM -0500, Jimmy Kaplowitz wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 07:10:40PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> > As Nils appears to still be a member of the board, the quorum for
> > conducting business remains at six of the eight board members.
> I thought the idea was that Nils was entirely removed from the board as
> of last December 31, but now that I reviewed his actual words, I don't
> think it's specified either way.

Whose words? URL?

Cheers,
aj

--
Anthony Towns <aj(at)humbug(dot)org(dot)au> <http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/>
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

``Australian Linux Lovefest Heads West''
-- linux.conf.au, Perth W.A., 22nd-25th January 2003

Previously Anthony Towns wrote:
> The agenda of things for discussion is probably something like:

There has been a draft agenda online for over a week, see the URL
in the #spi channel (on OFTC of course).

> Ean, as VP, could you please ensure that things keep moving ahead? In
> particular, why have the board failed to remove Nils from its number?

They haven't.

Wichert.

--
Wichert Akkerman <wichert(at)wiggy(dot)net> http://www.wiggy.net/
A random hacker

Hi folks,

As I mentioned before, I'll be traveling all this week (I'll
be in San Deigo for a conference); I'll try and dial in from the
hotel if I can slip away from the meeting.

Had the meetings been scheduled on a non-work-day, it would
have been possible for me to participate (as I strongly desire to)
;-)

manoj
--
Do not overtax your powers.
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta(at)acm(dot)org> <http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/>
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 08:01:09PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 04:52:18AM -0500, Jimmy Kaplowitz wrote:
> > On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 07:10:40PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> > > As Nils appears to still be a member of the board, the quorum for
> > > conducting business remains at six of the eight board members.
> > I thought the idea was that Nils was entirely removed from the board as
> > of last December 31, but now that I reviewed his actual words, I don't
> > think it's specified either way.
>
> Whose words? URL?

Check the debian-private archives. It's in there. For obvious reasons,
I'm not going to quote here.

- Jimmy Kaplowitz
jimmy(at)debian(dot)org

On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 07:10:40PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> Presumably there is to be a board meeting this Tuesday, at the usual time;
> but there doesn't seem to have been an announcement yet.

From: "M. Drew Streib" <dtype(at)dtype(dot)org>
To: board(at)spi-inc(dot)org
Subject: meeting
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 01:01:02 +0000
Message-Id: <E18TXFm-00044w-00(at)dtype(dot)org>

This is a reminder that there will be a SPI board meeting on the
first Tuesday following this message (maybe even today) at 2000 UTC.
This is my cheap cron hack until I get something better.

> So, the meeting should take place on #spi on irc.oftc.net, at 2003-01-07
> 20:00 UTC. The meeting will probably be closed or adjourned by 21:00
> UTC. As Nils appears to still be a member of the board, the quorum for
> conducting business remains at six of the eight board members.

Incorrect. Nils resigned effective 31 December.

> The agenda of things for discussion is probably something like:
>
> 1. Approving minutes of last meeting
> 2. Report from the treasurer (Branden)
> 3. Removal of Nils from the board
> 4. Resolution 2002-12-17.wta.1: Charter for the bylaws committee
> 5. New board members
> 6. eCos Membership
> 7. Tax writeoffs / OFTC
> 8. Listing in United Way
> 9. Accepting Sincere Choice
> 10. Copyright assignment (Martin Michlmayr)

I admire your optimism in thinking we could get through all of this in
less than an hour. Wichert has been keeping track of an agenda, of
which you appear to be unaware; surprising, given your presence in the
#spi channel on irc.oftc.net, in which the /topic for the past several
days has contained the text:

draft agenda for the next meeting at http://www.spi-inc.org/~wichert/agenda

> Wichert, could you as secretary please make an announcement like this
> (indicating time, location and agenda for the meeting -- ideally with
> more information on the individual points than there is above) both a
> week and two hours in advance of board meetings in future? For those of
> us not on the board list, it's very difficult to see what, if anything,
> is going on, without regular reports and announcements from the board.

At the very least we can ask Drew to alter his cheap cron hack to mail
spi-general as well as the Board list, which as you note is invisible to
most SPI members.

> Ean, as VP, could you please ensure that things keep moving ahead? In
> particular, why have the board failed to remove Nils from its number?

We haven't.

> Note that the failure of the board to meet quorum at any time during
> October, November or December puts it in technical violation of the
> requirement in the by-laws that regular meetings shall be held quarterly.

What do you propose we do about this? Board members refused to show up.
Some of those same Board members vetoed their own removal when asked to
step down for nonattendance. Do you have a TARDIS we can borrow?

Do you have any constructive suggestions to offer that aren't already in
the works? Do you regard (self-)flagellation as constructive? Is it
fruitful to wring your hands over spilt milk?

At any rate, thanks for de facto assisting Wichert with his secretarial
duties. I especially appreciate you keeping track of pending business,
even if we likely won't have time to address it all at the next meeting.

It might be worthwhile for some contributing members to nominate
themselves to research certain of the above issues, if they have an
interest in one or more. I'm sure it would do Joey Schulze's heart
proud of this sort of thing could happen in an unofficial, informal
capacity rather than by chartering a committee for each one; he'd no
doubt find himself in the unhappy position of having to veto such
charters. :-P

--
G. Branden Robinson, Treasurer
Software in the Public Interest, Inc.
treasurer(at)spi-inc(dot)org
http://www.spi-inc.org/

On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 11:00:46AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Had the meetings been scheduled on a non-work-day, it would
> have been possible for me to participate (as I strongly desire to)
> ;-)

What in particular amuses you about your possible (likely?) absence?

Weekends were worse for a majority of the Board at the time the monthly
meeting resolution was passed. Few of us have so much time on our hands
that we're always available.

Once we can finish reconstituting the Board and we get it nice and full
of active partipants, it might be a good idea to re-poll everyone on his
or her availability. It might be that a majority of the new Board would
in fact prefer weekend meetings.

--
G. Branden Robinson, Treasurer
Software in the Public Interest, Inc.
treasurer(at)spi-inc(dot)org
http://www.spi-inc.org/

>>"Branden" == Branden Robinson / SPI Treasurer <branden+spi-treasurer(at)deadbeast(dot)net> writes:

Branden> On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 11:00:46AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> Had the meetings been scheduled on a non-work-day, it would
>> have been possible for me to participate (as I strongly desire to)
>> ;-)

Branden> What in particular amuses you about your possible (likely?) absence?

Perhaps I am easily amused. The emoticon was attempting to
convey a wry grin, at the recollection that I had pitched in during
earlier discussions trying to get a rotating weekend/non-weekend time
slots.

Branden> Weekends were worse for a majority of the Board at the time
Branden> the monthly meeting resolution was passed. Few of us have
Branden> so much time on our hands that we're always available.

And some of us actually have little time to spare during work
hours (well, most days). Since Debian is not actually work related, I
find it ewasier to cmmit tiome to it that is not during normal
business hours.

manoj
--
"Sheriff, we gotta catch Black Bart." "Oh, yeah? What's he look
like?" "Well, he's wearin' a paper hat, a paper shirt, paper pants
and paper boots." "What's he wanted for?" "Rustling."
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta(at)acm(dot)org> <http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/>
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 08:09:35PM -0500, Branden Robinson / SPI Treasurer wrote:

My apologies for interfering in the board's operations.

Cheers,
aj

--
Anthony Towns <aj(at)humbug(dot)org(dot)au> <http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/>
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

``Australian Linux Lovefest Heads West''
-- linux.conf.au, Perth W.A., 22nd-25th January 2003

On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 08:09:35PM -0500, Branden Robinson / SPI Treasurer wrote:
> At the very least we can ask Drew to alter his cheap cron hack to mail
> spi-general as well as the Board list, which as you note is invisible to
> most SPI members.

Done.

-drew

--
M. Drew Streib <dtype(at)dtype(dot)org>
Independent Rambler, Software/Standards/Freedom/Law -- http://dtype.org/

On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 12:25:37AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 08:09:35PM -0500, Branden Robinson / SPI Treasurer wrote:
>
> My apologies for interfering in the board's operations.

I don't understand the motivation behind your statement. You made some
assumptions about Board inactivity that were grounded in ignorance --
which wasn't completely your fault as the Board belated provided public
notification of some of them, as I acknowledged. In any event, I
corrected them, and thanked you for keeping track of some things that
might otherwise go neglected.

You also appeared to be indulging in bellyaching about a past thing
which is in no one's power to fix. I have already accepted my
responsibilty for missing one of the five or so meetings we attempted to
convene in that quarter, and I'll do so again in this message:

I accept responsibility for contributing to the failure of the SPI Board
to meet quorum during its meetings last quarter by being absent for one
meeting (December 3rd).

What more do you ask? Please be specific.

I welcome your continued contributions; I just wish you could make them
without an accompanying prognostication of disaster. Yes, we may(?)
have technically failed to hold some meeting or other in accordance with
the bylaws. My impression is that if true, it was far from the first
irregularity in SPI's history, and we unless can get active personnel
where they are needed, it likely won't be the last.

Your griping about unrecoverable past screwups is reminiscent of Russell
Nelson's public disparagement of SPI, or a certain advisor's recent mail
to the Board. Gripes are best accompanied by concrete recommendations
for reform. I think you're perfectly capable of providing such
recommendations. My only question is whether you're willing.

We need objectivity, not knee-jerk optimism nor knee-jerk pessimism.

At any rate, if Anthony Towns is unwilling to help keep the Board on its
toes in the way I've described, I invite another SPI contributing member
to do so.

--
G. Branden Robinson, Treasurer
Software in the Public Interest, Inc.
treasurer(at)spi-inc(dot)org
http://www.spi-inc.org/

On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 12:28:26PM -0500, Branden Robinson / SPI Treasurer wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 12:25:37AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> > On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 08:09:35PM -0500, Branden Robinson / SPI Treasurer wrote:
> >
> > My apologies for interfering in the board's operations.
>
> I don't understand the motivation behind your statement. You made some
> assumptions about Board inactivity that were grounded in ignorance --
> which wasn't completely your fault as the Board belated provided public
> notification of some of them, as I acknowledged. In any event, I
> corrected them, and thanked you for keeping track of some things that
> might otherwise go neglected.

What's wrong to make apologies for assumptions that were grounded in ignorance ?
Or you don't see making apologies as a motivation ?

[For the record, I was in the same ignorance as Anthony. For example, I
received Wichert mail about the Nils removal from the board after aj mail.]

Cheers,
Bill.

On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 12:28:26PM -0500, Branden Robinson / SPI Treasurer wrote:
> which wasn't completely your fault as the Board belated provided public
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> irregularity in SPI's history, and we unless can get active personnel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

English errors, two of them in fact, in an Overfiend post. Blasphemous!
Now that I think about it, this could be an imposter, sent in to infiltrate
the SPI ranks, spreading fear and sabotaging us. Yes, yeees, I can see it
now, SPI obliterated by the fifth column, Debian up in flames, ...!

<chuckle>

--
2. That which causes joy or happiness.

On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 07:03:39PM +0100, Bill Allombert wrote:
> What's wrong to make apologies for assumptions that were grounded in ignorance ?
> Or you don't see making apologies as a motivation ?

I understood in the context of Anthony's other mails to other lists
(i.e. his style of writing email messages), that this is his way of
refusing to have anything more to do with the subject.

Also, note that he didn't apologize for making incorrect assumptions.
He apologized for "interfering" with the Board, which is not something
he was accused of doing.

In short, the apology appeared to me to be insincere, and an
overreaction.

But, hey, maybe I'm wrong. Anthony doesn't have a gag in his mouth; he
can set me straight if I am.

> [For the record, I was in the same ignorance as Anthony. For example, I
> received Wichert mail about the Nils removal from the board after aj mail.]

As I said, the ignorance is quite understandable given the lack of
speedy updates from the Board. The blanket assumption that absolutely
nothing had been done with respect to anything was anywhere from
uncharitable to unwarranted.

--
G. Branden Robinson, Treasurer
Software in the Public Interest, Inc.
treasurer(at)spi-inc(dot)org
http://www.spi-inc.org/

On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 07:09:42PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 12:28:26PM -0500, Branden Robinson / SPI Treasurer wrote:
> > which wasn't completely your fault as the Board belated provided public
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > irregularity in SPI's history, and we unless can get active personnel
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> English errors, two of them in fact, in an Overfiend post. Blasphemous!
> Now that I think about it, this could be an imposter, sent in to infiltrate
> the SPI ranks, spreading fear and sabotaging us. Yes, yeees, I can see it
> now, SPI obliterated by the fifth column, Debian up in flames, ...!

Nope, just my continuing decay to the Manoj steady state of generally
not noticing one's own typos, and not bothering to go back and correct
them if one does... :)

--
G. Branden Robinson, Treasurer
Software in the Public Interest, Inc.
treasurer(at)spi-inc(dot)org
http://www.spi-inc.org/

Thanks for the vote of confidence Anthony but I can safely say that
there is no way we would get through this list of items. I would prefer
to see us address the pressing problems at hand and handle the rest of
the business via email. Primarily I want to get some more hands on the
board to keep work moving and I'd like to readdress the by-law
subcommittee in a non-veto environment.

On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 03:10, Anthony Towns wrote:
> The agenda of things for discussion is probably something like:
>
> 1. Approving minutes of last meeting
> 2. Report from the treasurer (Branden)
> 3. Removal of Nils from the board
> 4. Resolution 2002-12-17.wta.1: Charter for the bylaws committee
> 5. New board members
> 6. eCos Membership
> 7. Tax writeoffs / OFTC
> 8. Listing in United Way
> 9. Accepting Sincere Choice
> 10. Copyright assignment (Martin Michlmayr)

--
_____________________________________________________________________
Ean Schuessler ean(at)brainfood(dot)com
Chief Technology Officer 214-720-0700 x 315
Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com

Previously Anthony Towns wrote:
> 6. eCos Membership

Please see
http://www.spi-inc.org/corporate/resolutions/resolution-2002-10-08.mgs

Wichert.

--
Wichert Akkerman <wichert(at)wiggy(dot)net> http://www.wiggy.net/
A random hacker

On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 12:28:26PM -0500, Branden Robinson / SPI Treasurer wrote:
> You also appeared to be indulging in bellyaching about a past thing
> which is in no one's power to fix.

You're mistaken. No one has the power to change what happened,
obviously. It can, however, be fixed by the board addressing the issues
it has failed to in the last quarter, and by not making the same mistakes
again.

For your reference, the SPI secretary has already declaimed Drew's
automated notifications as being official announcements of meetings and
indicated that meetings that have not been more formely announced have
not actually been called, and, as far as I am aware has not withdrawn
that opinion.

> I welcome your continued contributions; I just wish you could make them
> without an accompanying prognostication of disaster.

Odd; I thought, and upon rereading stil think, that that's what I'd done.

> We need objectivity, not knee-jerk optimism nor knee-jerk pessimism.

How about avoiding knee-jerk defensiveness too?

For reference, there's no requirement to get through all the items on an
agenda at the meeting: the meeting can be adjourned and continued later,
or items can be deferred until the next scheduled meeting. Further,
there's no reason why the details of most of those options can not have
been already analysed outside of the meeting, and be resolved quickly
at the meeting, just as you won't be preparing your report during the
meeting itself. In trying to list all the outstanding items on the SPI
board's agenda, I wasn't trying to either overload you or get you to
demonstrate superhuman abilities.

So, now you have an apology and a defense. What more do you want?

Cheers,
aj

--
Anthony Towns <aj(at)humbug(dot)org(dot)au> <http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/>
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

``Australian Linux Lovefest Heads West''
-- linux.conf.au, Perth W.A., 22nd-25th January 2003

Previously Anthony Towns wrote:
> For your reference, the SPI secretary has already declaimed Drew's
> automated notifications as being official announcements of meetings and
> indicated that meetings that have not been more formely announced have
> not actually been called, and, as far as I am aware has not withdrawn
> that opinion.

I am not aware of having indicated that.

Wichert.

--
Wichert Akkerman <wichert(at)wiggy(dot)net> http://www.wiggy.net/
A random hacker

Someone wrote:
> So, now you have an apology and a defense. What more do you want?

Speaking personally, I'd much prefer it if people could avoid battles
of wills over who said what when and whether they were mean and whose
mother is ugly and who is trashing the organisation and ...

Can we cut out the mudslinging, and the defensiveness, on all sides ?

Ian.
(Expecting to get a defensive reply to what some will see as
mudslinging. Oh well.)

On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 11:29:48AM +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Someone wrote:
> > So, now you have an apology and a defense. What more do you want?
>
> Speaking personally, I'd much prefer it if people could avoid battles
> of wills over who said what when

Well, that should be a matter of record, and not something arbitrated by
will.

I for one would like clarification on whether the Board meeting
reminders are really Board meeting reminders, or just worthless, meaning
emails.

I'm inclined to consider them the former, but maybe that's just me.
Anthony and Wichert seem to be at loggerheads over the issue.

--
G. Branden Robinson, Treasurer
Software in the Public Interest, Inc.
treasurer(at)spi-inc(dot)org
http://www.spi-inc.org/

On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 06:38:50PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> You're mistaken. No one has the power to change what happened,
> obviously. It can, however, be fixed by the board addressing the issues
> it has failed to in the last quarter, and by not making the same mistakes
> again.

Clearly you are the first person to realize this...

> For your reference, the SPI secretary has already declaimed Drew's
> automated notifications as being official announcements of meetings and
> indicated that meetings that have not been more formely announced have
> not actually been called, and, as far as I am aware has not withdrawn
> that opinion.

Wichert appears to disagree, and I'm inclined to hold his interpretation
as controlling.

However, if you'd like to make some concrete proposals that are more in
line with our by-laws and standing resolutions so as to help us handle
our meetings more efficiently, that would certainly be welcomed on my
part. I definitely prefer concrete recommendations to an iterative
process by which we gradually (asymptotically?) approach the mental
model of the ideal Board meeting that you hold in your head.

> > I welcome your continued contributions; I just wish you could make them
> > without an accompanying prognostication of disaster.
>
> Odd; I thought, and upon rereading stil think, that that's what I'd done.

Hmm. So we're in agreement?

> > We need objectivity, not knee-jerk optimism nor knee-jerk pessimism.
>
> How about avoiding knee-jerk defensiveness too?

As I said, I'm willing to stand corrected if shrill criticality was not
your intented tone.

> For reference, there's no requirement to get through all the items on an
> agenda at the meeting: the meeting can be adjourned and continued later,
> or items can be deferred until the next scheduled meeting. Further,
> there's no reason why the details of most of those options can not have
> been already analysed outside of the meeting, and be resolved quickly
> at the meeting, just as you won't be preparing your report during the
> meeting itself. In trying to list all the outstanding items on the SPI
> board's agenda, I wasn't trying to either overload you or get you to
> demonstrate superhuman abilities.

As I said before, I very much appreciate your efforts in keeping track
of this old business. It should be the ranking SPI officer's
responsibility to set the agenda accordingly, though for today's meeting
it looks like Wichert is in charge of it. :)

Please take note of Wichert's correction regarding eCos, and keep up the
good work.

> So, now you have an apology and a defense. What more do you want?

Your assistance and encouragement in helping SPI as an organization to
better fulfill its charter. You seem to be on the right track with
respect to the former. All I ask is a little more of the latter. :)

All of the above isn't to say I've been above reproach in my functions
as an SPI Board member, as I believe I've noted several times in several
places. I welcome specific critique, preferably accompanied by
practical recommendations for reform or assistance. What puts me on the
defensive are what I interpret to be broad disparagements. I freely
admit that it takes two for a disparagement to be received as such, and
I will endeavor to mitigate my own role in such interpretations. This
is not difficult when I understand the basic motivations of the sender.

--
G. Branden Robinson, Treasurer
Software in the Public Interest, Inc.
treasurer(at)spi-inc(dot)org
http://www.spi-inc.org/