Re: ASL/SPI partnership

After discussions with Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) some months
ago, I believe that moving money for free software projects in/out of
Brazil is rather awkward. There is Associação SoftwareLivre.org which
is a non-profit civil association which helped debian for debconf 4.

So, an ASL-SPI partnership similar to the ffis-SPI one in theory seems
a good idea to me. I ask the next board meeting to state what the
requirements and process are for new SPI partnerships, whether they
are interested in partners in any particular countries and to contact
faw about an ASL-SPI partnership (address in headers).

About debconf 4: what has happened to the US$ 19k+ invested from
http://debconf4.debconf.org/final-report.html#FINANCIAL-SUMMARY
? I don't remember seeing it on any SPI treasurer reports.

I cc the secretary on this request so that it should be included in
his report to the next meeting, any road up.

Regards,
--
MJ Ray - see/vidu http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html
Somerset, England. Work/Laborejo: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
IRC/Jabber/SIP: on request/peteble.

MJ,

> So, an ASL-SPI partnership similar to the ffis-SPI one in theory seems
> a good idea to me. I ask the next board meeting to state what the
> requirements and process are for new SPI partnerships, whether they
> are interested in partners in any particular countries and to contact
> faw about an ASL-SPI partnership (address in headers).

I take it that this would be just a pledge for them to pay our expenses in
Brazil, and for us to pay theirs in N. America?

> About debconf 4: what has happened to the US$ 19k+ invested from
> http://debconf4.debconf.org/final-report.html#FINANCIAL-SUMMARY
> ? I don't remember seeing it on any SPI treasurer reports.

We have an investment account that hasn't been part of my reports because I'm
still working on mastering our checking account. Beyond that, I'm not sure
what you're referring to; I wasn't here in 2003.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Project
Core Team Member
(any opinions expressed are my own)

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On 01/24/2007 03:08 PM, Josh Berkus wrote:
>> So, an ASL-SPI partnership similar to the ffis-SPI one in theory seems
>> a good idea to me. I ask the next board meeting to state what the
>> requirements and process are for new SPI partnerships, whether they
>> are interested in partners in any particular countries and to contact
>> faw about an ASL-SPI partnership (address in headers).
>
> I take it that this would be just a pledge for them to pay our expenses in
> Brazil, and for us to pay theirs in N. America?

Yes, I think is is something like that. Since DebConf4, ASL.org
is holding Debian's money and every once in a while, Brazilian Debian
Developers request Debian Project Leader (DPL) approval to use the money
to pay for a booth or to make some CDs. The money is also used in
situations like DebConf reimbursements.

>> About debconf 4: what has happened to the US$ 19k+ invested from
>> http://debconf4.debconf.org/final-report.html#FINANCIAL-SUMMARY
>> ? I don't remember seeing it on any SPI treasurer reports.
>
> We have an investment account that hasn't been part of my reports because I'm
> still working on mastering our checking account. Beyond that, I'm not sure
> what you're referring to; I wasn't here in 2003.

I don't know that also. ;)

Since the first contact from MJ Ray I was unsure on how to work
on a partnership between ASL.org and SPI. I tried to contact a few people
from SPI a while ago without any answers. :-(

With the last change in the Debian Constitution, it seems that
DPL is able to apoint a list of "sister" organizations that can take
care of Debian's money, which is in fact what already happen, because
ASL.org do not use the money without DPL approval and a Brazilian DD
"hint" (which basically means, translating and forwarding mails to the
right people). ;)

Kind regards,

- --
Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)
"Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom!"
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Felipe,

> Yes, I think is is something like that. Since DebConf4, ASL.org
> is holding Debian's money and every once in a while, Brazilian Debian
> Developers request Debian Project Leader (DPL) approval to use the money
> to pay for a booth or to make some CDs. The money is also used in
> situations like DebConf reimbursements.

Hmmm. How would we handle eventual balance-of-payment issues? Given that
we're liable to raise more money in the US? We can't just transfer to
you. :-(

> With the last change in the Debian Constitution, it seems that
> DPL is able to apoint a list of "sister" organizations that can take
> care of Debian's money, which is in fact what already happen, because
> ASL.org do not use the money without DPL approval and a Brazilian DD
> "hint" (which basically means, translating and forwarding mails to the
> right people). ;)

Yes. If we're talking Debian only, the DPL can ask me to pay *any* Debian
expense; he doesn't have to justify it as a sister organization or anything.
As long as the DPL asks for it, someone produces a receipt and it's not
something specifically prohibited, I'll pay it.

Now, I think it might be more useful to do partnerships for all SPI
organizations. PostgreSQL, for example, has a large community in Brazil and
no non-profit org there. I'll have to talk to them about that when I'm there
for FISL8.

--
Josh Berkus
Treasurer
Software in the Public Interest, Inc.
www.spi-inc.org

Josh Berkus <josh(at)postgresql(dot)org> wrote:
> I take it that this would be just a pledge for them to pay our expenses in
> Brazil, and for us to pay theirs in N. America?

That, do any fee-efficient money transfers that may be possible and
reporting funds held in Brazil in SPI's annual reports, I think.

> > About debconf 4: what has happened to the US$ 19k+ invested from
> > http://debconf4.debconf.org/final-report.html#FINANCIAL-SUMMARY
> > ? I don't remember seeing it on any SPI treasurer reports.
>
> We have an investment account that hasn't been part of my reports because I'm
> still working on mastering our checking account. Beyond that, I'm not sure
> what you're referring to; I wasn't here in 2003.

I refer to the money named in the above-linked report:

The amount named as "Credit" on the table in the previous section is
invested by ASL (so it may have grown as for today), on Debian's
behalf, in Brazil. A 10% administration fee is charged and it can be
withdrawn after a 30-day notice (that is common practice in these
cases) either in credit of SPI (by means of an international
agreement) or to be used in Brazil as explained before.

Hope that explains,
--
MJ Ray - see/vidu http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html
Somerset, England. Work/Laborejo: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
IRC/Jabber/SIP: on request/peteble.

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[ I'm not sure if my messages are getting thru spi-general, since I'm ]
[ not subscribed yet, maybe a list-admin needs to manually approve it ]

On 01/29/2007 02:22 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Felipe,
>
>> Yes, I think is is something like that. Since DebConf4, ASL.org
>> is holding Debian's money and every once in a while, Brazilian Debian
>> Developers request Debian Project Leader (DPL) approval to use the money
>> to pay for a booth or to make some CDs. The money is also used in
>> situations like DebConf reimbursements.
>
> Hmmm. How would we handle eventual balance-of-payment issues?

Sorry, your question is not clear to me. What types of
"balance-of-payment"? I didn't understood if we are doing something
wrong or if we should be doing something else.

I already speak with ASL.org people and they give me freedom
to talk with SPI and related people to have the best relationship
possible, specially between Debian and ASL.org. And I'm really trying
to understand what needs to be done, since mid-2006, and I'm already
happy that finally I got some answers/feedback.

So, if you think or find something wrong, let me know, I will
do my best to find out the missing points, so we can work together to
fix it.

> Given that we're liable to raise more money in the US?

Sorry, that is also not clear for me. :-(

> We can't just transfer to you. :-(

Maybe now I understand what you are talking about. By "transfer
to you" you mean to any given person in Brazil? Or to a sister organization
like ASL.org?

Brazilian laws about money are quite complex and very (*very*) hard
about sending money outside or receiving money from outside. DebConf4
Organization Team had a hard time because of that, even with O'Reilly book
donations.

I can get more info, I can even get the right people to arrange
the things and set a partnership, I would be happy to even take part on
that and be a contact person to take care of reports and requests. Just
let me know if something is wrong and what is needed so I can organize
the required info.

>> With the last change in the Debian Constitution, it seems that
>> DPL is able to apoint a list of "sister" organizations that can take
>> care of Debian's money, which is in fact what already happen, because
>> ASL.org do not use the money without DPL approval and a Brazilian DD
>> "hint" (which basically means, translating and forwarding mails to the
>> right people). ;)
>
> Yes. If we're talking Debian only, the DPL can ask me to pay *any* Debian
> expense; he doesn't have to justify it as a sister organization or anything.
> As long as the DPL asks for it, someone produces a receipt and it's not
> something specifically prohibited, I'll pay it.

So far, that's what we did so far. DebConf4 money was considered
Debian money in Brazil, it is hard to sent it out (or back) so, DebConf4
Organization Team decided to leave it here to fund Debian related things.

> Now, I think it might be more useful to do partnerships for all SPI
> organizations. PostgreSQL, for example, has a large community in Brazil and
> no non-profit org there. I'll have to talk to them about that when I'm there
> for FISL8.

I take care of PostgreSQL-BR server, they told me you are coming,
and I'm glad that we could meet each other (perhaps sign keys :D), besides
that, we can also talk about a general partnership, I'm sure that ASL.org
would be glad to host PgSQL-BR bank account.

Kind regards,

PS: I'm also a PostgreSQL big fan! :-)
- --
Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)
"Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom!"
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MJ,

Aha, thanks.

So Brazil is holding about 41,000R in DebConf funds? This seems perfect
... they can continue to pay Debian expenses in Brazil, and there is no
balance-of-payments issue.

For obvious tax reasons, this money is not going to be on SPI's books,
since it never hit our bank account. But it should mean that Debian's
Brazil expenses are funded for the forseeable future.

Felipe, is anything else required to allow you to draw on that money to
cover Debian expenses in Brazil? Do you think you could provide us with
a report on it a couple times a year?

--Josh Berkus

Josh Berkus <josh(at)postgresql(dot)org> wrote: [...]
> For obvious tax reasons, this money is not going to be on SPI's books,
> since it never hit our bank account. [...]

It's not obvious to me (damnit, Jim, I'm a statistician, not an
accountant) so what are the reasons for keeping the Brazilian money
off SPI's books?

Tax? Isn't SPI tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal
Revenue Code?

Confused,
--
MJ Ray - see/vidu http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html
Somerset, England. Work/Laborejo: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
IRC/Jabber/SIP: on request/peteble.

MJ,

> It's not obvious to me (damnit, Jim, I'm a statistician, not an
> accountant) so what are the reasons for keeping the Brazilian money
> off SPI's books?

A few reasons:
1) ASL controls the funds, not us.
2) I doubt we reported the income to the IRS in 2004, so we don't want to
claim it now;
3) Putting it on our books would complicate life (we'd have to account for
it and file special forms for money held outside the US) without providing
any benefit I can figure out.

--
--Josh Berkus

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Project Core Team
www.postgresql.org

(all opinions expressed are my own; I do not speak
for the Project unless specifically noted.)

On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 06:22:26PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> Josh Berkus <josh(at)postgresql(dot)org> wrote: [...]
> > For obvious tax reasons, this money is not going to be on SPI's books,
> > since it never hit our bank account. [...]
> It's not obvious to me (damnit, Jim, I'm a statistician, not an
> accountant) so what are the reasons for keeping the Brazilian money
> off SPI's books?

The money should be on Debian's books, not SPI's. ASL retain direct
responsibility for its correct handling, not SPI, which is why it
shouldn't be in SPI's books.

Cheers,
aj

Anthony Towns writes ("Re: ASL/SPI partnership"):
> The money should be on Debian's books, not SPI's. ASL retain direct
> responsibility for its correct handling, not SPI, which is why it
> shouldn't be in SPI's books.

You mean, surely, that it should be on ASL's books. Debian doesn't
have any books, since it's not a legal entity.

Ian.

On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 02:51:21PM +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Anthony Towns writes ("Re: ASL/SPI partnership"):
> > The money should be on Debian's books, not SPI's. ASL retain direct
> > responsibility for its correct handling, not SPI, which is why it
> > shouldn't be in SPI's books.
>
> You mean, surely, that it should be on ASL's books. Debian doesn't
> have any books, since it's not a legal entity.

Even businesses which are not legal entities, like sole proprietorships
and presumably unincorporated nonprofit associations such as Debian,
should still do some form of accounting to keep track of the finances. I
agree ASL should also record on its books money that it holds in trust
for Debian, but there's no way Debian as a whole can get a proper
picture of its income/loss, balance sheet, cash flow, and net worth
across all its affiliated legal entities unless Debian keeps a set of
books for itself. Isn't there even someone delegated by the DPL as an
accountant for this purpose?

- Jimmy Kaplowitz
jimmy(at)debian(dot)org

Jimmy,

> Even businesses which are not legal entities, like sole proprietorships
> and presumably unincorporated nonprofit associations such as Debian,
> should still do some form of accounting to keep track of the finances. I
> agree ASL should also record on its books money that it holds in trust
> for Debian, but there's no way Debian as a whole can get a proper
> picture of its income/loss, balance sheet, cash flow, and net worth
> across all its affiliated legal entities unless Debian keeps a set of
> books for itself. Isn't there even someone delegated by the DPL as an
> accountant for this purpose?

Surely you know better ;-)

Anyway, there may actually be legal consequences to Debian keeping "books"; we
should check with Greg.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

Josh Berkus wrote:
> Jimmy,
>
> > Even businesses which are not legal entities, like sole proprietorships
> > and presumably unincorporated nonprofit associations such as Debian,
> > should still do some form of accounting to keep track of the finances. I
> > agree ASL should also record on its books money that it holds in trust
> > for Debian, but there's no way Debian as a whole can get a proper
> > picture of its income/loss, balance sheet, cash flow, and net worth
> > across all its affiliated legal entities unless Debian keeps a set of
> > books for itself. Isn't there even someone delegated by the DPL as an
> > accountant for this purpose?
>
> Surely you know better ;-)

According to http://www.debian.org/intro/organization, Mako is the
Debian Accountant:

Accountant -- <accountant(at)debian(dot)org>
member Benj. Mako Hill

I'm not sure what he's done though.

--
----------------------------
Michael Schultheiss
E-mail: schultmc(at)spi-inc(dot)org

On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 01:14:18PM -0500, Michael Schultheiss wrote:
> According to http://www.debian.org/intro/organization, Mako is the
> Debian Accountant:
> Accountant -- <accountant(at)debian(dot)org>
> member Benj. Mako Hill
> I'm not sure what he's done though.

He's assisted with donations and such in the past; I don't think he's had
a lot of time for it for a while now, but not sure. Kalle Kivimaa is the
Debian auditor, who's in theory trying to keep track of what assets are
available for Debian across various organisations, see [0].

Cheers,
aj

[0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/10/msg00005.html

<quote who="Anthony Towns" date="Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 08:32:00AM +1000">
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 01:14:18PM -0500, Michael Schultheiss wrote:
> > According to http://www.debian.org/intro/organization, Mako is the
> > Debian Accountant:
> > Accountant -- <accountant(at)debian(dot)org>
> > member Benj. Mako Hill
> > I'm not sure what he's done though.
>
> He's assisted with donations and such in the past; I don't think
> he's had a lot of time for it for a while now, but not sure. Kalle
> Kivimaa is the Debian auditor, who's in theory trying to keep track
> of what assets are available for Debian across various
> organisations, see [0].

I think that the Debian Auditor role has replaced the accountant role
(which was a few years old and never really got off the ground in a
major way).

In any case, the account role hasn't recieved anything other than spam
in a very long time. If nobody objects, I'm happy to make that change
the information (to remove the accountant role) from the Debian
organization page and to have the alias removed as well.

Regards,
Mako

--
Benjamin Mako Hill
mako(at)debian(dot)org
http://mako.cc/