Re: Issues applying to SPI

Hello all,

I'm not sure I'm allowed to comment on this - I have not been able to join
SPI formally as the "Apply" link under Membership on the website it broken.

I agree with rescinding the positions of SPI Board Advisors. It's
problematic to allow these (all male) people to continue on in those
positions, when people like myself who are very interested can't even join
SPI as a member. It's offensive, and as Martin pointed out, doesn't
reflect reality. It's very misleading with regards to their role in/with
SPI. Why would they continue to have these titles if they're not
interested/not doing anything special? I would infer that advisors for a
project are consulted, and if they were not, I would question the entire
communications and governance of the project (which I am now doing). I
would recommend SPI brings on productive/interested advisors if they will
continue recognizing these positions/titles, and to actually consult the
advisors. If the current advisors want to play an active role in
consultation, then they could keep their title/role. I would like to put
my name forward as the Diversity and Inclusion Advisor, if advisors will
remain.

With regards to Filipus's comment, "Nor would I consider gender imbalance
as a problem per se": Gender imbalance is a huge problem in SPI, please
stop denying that this is a massive, glaring problem, and looks terrible
for SPI's current optics in terms of inclusiveness and diversity. Again,
as an outsider (who also happens to be female) I can honestly say that SPI
looks, from the outside, to be a cis-white-middle-aged-male-debian "Boys'
club". Gender imbalance is absolutely a problem per se, as is the lack of
other types of diversity.

Sincerely,
Katie McMillan

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 7:00 AM <spi-general-request(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org>
wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
> advisors (Martin Michlmayr)
> 2. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
> advisors (Luca Filipozzi)
> 3. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
> advisors (Bdale Garbee)
> 4. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
> advisors (Martin Michlmayr)
> 5. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
> advisors (Filipus Klutiero)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 22:36:06 +0200
> From: Martin Michlmayr <tbm(at)cyrius(dot)com>
> To: Tim Potter <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org>
> Cc: spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
> advisors
> Message-ID: <20191209203606(dot)GA29219(at)jirafa(dot)cyrius(dot)com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> * Tim Potter <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org> [2019-12-09 20:17]:
> > Hi everyone. One item discussed at a recent meeting of the SPI board was
> > concerning the position of Board Advisors. Many years ago Board Advisors
> > served a useful purpose but have not been used in a very long time. It is
> > proposed in this resolution[1] to rescind the positions of SPI Board
> Advisors.
>
> I think there should be some rationale in the resolution as to why,
> i.e. that this is not a reduction in transparency but a reflection
> that monthly SPI board meetings are open and that everyone is
> invited to participate (rather than limiting input to some special
> advisors).
>
> --
> Martin Michlmayr
> https://www.cyrius.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 22:49:48 +0000
> From: Luca Filipozzi <lfilipoz(at)spi-inc(dot)org>
> To: spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
> advisors
> Message-ID: <20191209224948(dot)menxx5kgkkwrt7hb(at)snafu(dot)emyr(dot)net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Mon, Dec 09, 2019 at 10:36:06PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> > * Tim Potter <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org> [2019-12-09 20:17]:
> > > Hi everyone. One item discussed at a recent meeting of the SPI board
> was
> > > concerning the position of Board Advisors. Many years ago Board
> Advisors
> > > served a useful purpose but have not been used in a very long time. It
> is
> > > proposed in this resolution[1] to rescind the positions of SPI Board
> Advisors.
> >
> > I think there should be some rationale in the resolution as to why,
> > i.e. that this is not a reduction in transparency but a reflection
> > that monthly SPI board meetings are open and that everyone is
> > invited to participate (rather than limiting input to some special
> > advisors).
>
> That plus:
> - (1) we don't actually reach out to the advisors for input (as far as
> I've seen since I was elected a few years ago)
> - (2) if we want input from someone, we can just ask them without
> appointing them as an advisor
>
> --
> Luca Filipozzi
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2019 15:59:07 -0700
> From: Bdale Garbee <bdale(at)gag(dot)com>
> To: Tim Potter <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org>, spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
> advisors
> Message-ID: <87blshyukk(dot)fsf(at)gag(dot)com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Tim Potter <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org> writes:
>
> > Hi everyone. One item discussed at a recent meeting of the SPI board was
> > concerning the position of Board Advisors. Many years ago Board Advisors
> > served a useful purpose but have not been used in a very long time. It is
> > proposed in this resolution[1] to rescind the positions of SPI Board
> > Advisors.
>
> It's not clear to me why you need to rescind the resolution instead of
> just continuing to not actually appoint or seek advice from existing
> appointees. What's the problem you're actually trying to solve?
>
> Bdale
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 01:19:03 +0200
> From: Martin Michlmayr <tbm(at)cyrius(dot)com>
> To: Bdale Garbee <bdale(at)gag(dot)com>
> Cc: spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org, Tim Potter <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org>
> Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
> advisors
> Message-ID: <20191209231903(dot)GB29219(at)jirafa(dot)cyrius(dot)com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> * Bdale Garbee <bdale(at)gag(dot)com> [2019-12-09 15:59]:
> > It's not clear to me why you need to rescind the resolution instead of
> > just continuing to not actually appoint or seek advice from existing
> > appointees. What's the problem you're actually trying to solve?
>
> Make sure reality is reflected.
>
> The annual report lists the advisors, but they haven't been consulted
> in years, so imho it makes sense to reflect that. It also creates
> more balance between projects (why is the Debian project leader always
> an advisor?)
>
> (For the record, I'm not on the board and can't speak for SPI. But I
> brought this up when I was on the board and had the action item to
> write a resolution, which unfortunately I never did.)
> --
> Martin Michlmayr
> https://www.cyrius.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 20:12:04 -0500
> From: Filipus Klutiero <chealer(at)gmail(dot)com>
> To: spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
> advisors
> Message-ID: <f2696ab9-4131-e1a3-ad1f-5851abf7ab16(at)gmail(dot)com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi,
>
> Le 2019-12-09 ? 18:19, Martin Michlmayr a ?crit?:
> > * Bdale Garbee <bdale(at)gag(dot)com> [2019-12-09 15:59]:
> >> It's not clear to me why you need to rescind the resolution instead of
> >> just continuing to not actually appoint or seek advice from existing
> >> appointees. What's the problem you're actually trying to solve?
> > Make sure reality is reflected.
> >
> > The annual report lists the advisors, but they haven't been consulted
> > in years, so imho it makes sense to reflect that.
>
>
> I find it quite natural in a mostly open project like this one that
> advisors are not explicitly consulted. I would not infer from a presence
> in such an SPI advisor list that a person is explicitly consulted.
>
>
> > It also creates
> > more balance between projects (why is the Debian project leader always
> > an advisor?)
>
> I do not see balance between projects (whatever that means) as a goal.
> Nor would I consider gender imbalance as a problem per se. To discuss
> genders, the problem I could see is a lack of feminine presence. But I
> expelling productive males would be a costly solution to that, if it can
> be one.
>
> I never heard about advisor creating any kind of imbalance (though I
> must say I was also unaware of their existence).
>
>
> That being said, I have no strong opinion on this, though if we don't
> publish a list of current advisors, as seems to be the case, I would
> tend to support abolition.
>
> >
> > [...]
>
> --
> Filipus Klutiero
> http://www.philippecloutier.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spi-general mailing list
> Spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> http://lists.spi-inc.org/listinfo/spi-general
>
>
> End of Spi-general Digest, Vol 159, Issue 2
> *******************************************
>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 09:02:03AM -0500, Katherine Mcmillan wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I'm not sure I'm allowed to comment on this - I have not been able to join
> SPI formally as the "Apply" link under Membership on the website it broken.

Have you reported details of these issues to webmaster(at)? I don't think
I've seen anything.

J.

--
After a number of decimal places, nobody gives a damn.
This .sig brought to you by the letter P and the number 10
Product of the Republic of HuggieTag

* Katherine Mcmillan <kmcmi046(at)uottawa(dot)ca> [2019-12-10 09:02]:
> I'm not sure I'm allowed to comment on this - I have not been able to join
> SPI formally as the "Apply" link under Membership on the website it broken.

Jonathan McDowell recently fixed something in the membership system.
Can you please try again to see if it's working now?

--
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

Hi Jonathan,

I've reported this issue directly to Michael Schultheiss. I thought he
would pass on the message to the correct people.

Thank you,
Katie

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 9:37 AM Jonathan McDowell <noodles(at)earth(dot)li> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 09:02:03AM -0500, Katherine Mcmillan wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I'm not sure I'm allowed to comment on this - I have not been able to
> join
> > SPI formally as the "Apply" link under Membership on the website it
> broken.
>
> Have you reported details of these issues to webmaster(at)? I don't think
> I've seen anything.
>
> J.
>
> --
> After a number of decimal places, nobody gives a damn.
> This .sig brought to you by the letter P and the number 10
> Product of the Republic of HuggieTag
>

Katherine Mcmillan wrote:
> I've reported this issue directly to Michael Schultheiss.  I thought
> he would pass on the message to the correct people.

I was looking into backporting the package that was needed to fix the
issue but it looks like the current site maintainer already fixed the
issue. Please try again - you may need to clear your cache to see the
fixed site. If you're still having issues with the membership site,
webmaster(at)spi-inc(dot)org is the best way to report them.

--
----------------------------
Michael Schultheiss
E-mail: schultmc(at)spi-inc(dot)org

Hi Michael and SPI team,

The 'Apply' link has been fixed, and I was able to apply for membership.
Thank you very much for your timely resolution of this issue.

Sincerely,
Katie

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 1:54 PM Michael Schultheiss <schultmc(at)spi-inc(dot)org>
wrote:

> Katherine Mcmillan wrote:
> > I've reported this issue directly to Michael Schultheiss. I thought
> > he would pass on the message to the correct people.
>
> I was looking into backporting the package that was needed to fix the
> issue but it looks like the current site maintainer already fixed the
> issue. Please try again - you may need to clear your cache to see the
> fixed site. If you're still having issues with the membership site,
> webmaster(at)spi-inc(dot)org is the best way to report them.
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------
> Michael Schultheiss
> E-mail: schultmc(at)spi-inc(dot)org
>

Hi Katherine and welcome to SPI,
I understand your frustration of not being able to join. I was there
myself a few years ago, although the issue was silent, so it took a
while to detect it. There is still a ticket which should help to ease
detection of these situations:
http://lists.spi-inc.org/pipermail/spi-general/2016-September/003545.html
Thank you for being kind enough to report the issue. I am glad it could
be solved.

I'm sorry, my statement was unclear at best. What I meant to say is that
I do not consider it a problem if the number of male SPI members is
different from the number of female members. I consider diversity and
inclusiveness as 2 very different things. I do not see it as a problem
per se that diversity is lower than it could be, but I would consider it
a problem if inclusiveness is lower than it can be. And I would see it
as a problem if the average power in SPI of a group X was different from
the average power in SPI of a group Y, if the only difference between
their members was gender.

So to go back to advisors, I don't see it as a problem per se if 2
associated projects have different numbers of advisors. What I would
consider problematic is if 2 equally important associated projects,
having each proposed an equal number of equally competent and acceptable
candidates, would end up with a different number of SPI advisors.

Le 2019-12-10 à 09:02, Katherine Mcmillan a écrit :
> Hello all,
>
> I'm not sure I'm allowed to comment on this - I have not been able to
> join SPI formally as the "Apply" link under Membership on the website
> it broken.
>
> I agree with rescinding the positions of SPI Board Advisors.  It's
> problematic to allow these (all male) people to continue on in those
> positions, when people like myself who are very interested can't even
> join SPI as a member.  It's offensive, and as Martin pointed out,
> doesn't reflect reality.  It's very misleading with regards to their
> role in/with SPI.  Why would they continue to have these titles if
> they're not interested/not doing anything special? I would infer that
> advisors for a project are consulted, and if they were not, I would
> question the entire communications and governance of the project
> (which I am now doing). I would recommend SPI brings on
> productive/interested advisors if they will continue recognizing these
> positions/titles, and to actually consult the advisors.  If the
> current advisors want to play an active role in consultation, then
> they could keep their title/role.  I would like to put my name forward
> as the Diversity and Inclusion Advisor, if advisors will remain.
>
> With regards to Filipus's comment, "Nor would I consider gender
> imbalance as a problem per se": Gender imbalance is a huge problem in
> SPI, please stop denying that this is a massive, glaring problem, and
> looks terrible for SPI's current optics in terms of inclusiveness and
> diversity.  Again, as an outsider (who also happens to be female) I
> can honestly say that SPI looks, from the outside, to be a
> cis-white-middle-aged-male-debian "Boys' club".  Gender imbalance is
> absolutely a problem per se, as is the lack of other types of diversity.
>
> Sincerely,
> Katie McMillan
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 7:00 AM <spi-general-request(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> <mailto:spi-general-request(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org>> wrote:
>
> Send Spi-general mailing list submissions to
> spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org <mailto:spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org>
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.spi-inc.org/listinfo/spi-general
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> spi-general-request(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> <mailto:spi-general-request(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org>
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> spi-general-owner(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> <mailto:spi-general-owner(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org>
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Spi-general digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
>       advisors (Martin Michlmayr)
>    2. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
>       advisors (Luca Filipozzi)
>    3. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
>       advisors (Bdale Garbee)
>    4. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
>       advisors (Martin Michlmayr)
>    5. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
>       advisors (Filipus Klutiero)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 22:36:06 +0200
> From: Martin Michlmayr <tbm(at)cyrius(dot)com <mailto:tbm(at)cyrius(dot)com>>
> To: Tim Potter <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org <mailto:tpot(at)frungy(dot)org>>
> Cc: spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> <mailto:spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org>
> Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
>         advisors
> Message-ID: <20191209203606(dot)GA29219(at)jirafa(dot)cyrius(dot)com
> <mailto:20191209203606(dot)GA29219(at)jirafa(dot)cyrius(dot)com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> * Tim Potter <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org <mailto:tpot(at)frungy(dot)org>>
> [2019-12-09 20:17]:
> > Hi everyone. One item discussed at a recent meeting of the SPI
> board was
> > concerning the position of Board Advisors. Many years ago Board
> Advisors
> > served a useful purpose but have not been used in a very long
> time. It is
> > proposed in this resolution[1] to rescind the positions of SPI
> Board Advisors.
>
> I think there should be some rationale in the resolution as to why,
> i.e. that this is not a reduction in transparency but a reflection
> that monthly SPI board meetings are open and that everyone is
> invited to participate (rather than limiting input to some special
> advisors).
>
> --
> Martin Michlmayr
> https://www.cyrius.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 22:49:48 +0000
> From: Luca Filipozzi <lfilipoz(at)spi-inc(dot)org
> <mailto:lfilipoz(at)spi-inc(dot)org>>
> To: spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> <mailto:spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org>
> Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
>         advisors
> Message-ID: <20191209224948(dot)menxx5kgkkwrt7hb(at)snafu(dot)emyr(dot)net
> <mailto:20191209224948(dot)menxx5kgkkwrt7hb(at)snafu(dot)emyr(dot)net>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Mon, Dec 09, 2019 at 10:36:06PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> > * Tim Potter <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org <mailto:tpot(at)frungy(dot)org>>
> [2019-12-09 20:17]:
> > > Hi everyone. One item discussed at a recent meeting of the SPI
> board was
> > > concerning the position of Board Advisors. Many years ago
> Board Advisors
> > > served a useful purpose but have not been used in a very long
> time. It is
> > > proposed in this resolution[1] to rescind the positions of SPI
> Board Advisors.
> >
> > I think there should be some rationale in the resolution as to why,
> > i.e. that this is not a reduction in transparency but a reflection
> > that monthly SPI board meetings are open and that everyone is
> > invited to participate (rather than limiting input to some special
> > advisors).
>
> That plus:
> - (1) we don't actually reach out to the advisors for input (as far as
>   I've seen since I was elected a few years ago)
> - (2) if we want input from someone, we can just ask them without
>   appointing them as an advisor
>
> --
> Luca Filipozzi
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2019 15:59:07 -0700
> From: Bdale Garbee <bdale(at)gag(dot)com <mailto:bdale(at)gag(dot)com>>
> To: Tim Potter <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org <mailto:tpot(at)frungy(dot)org>>,
> spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org <mailto:spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org>
> Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
>         advisors
> Message-ID: <87blshyukk(dot)fsf(at)gag(dot)com <mailto:87blshyukk(dot)fsf(at)gag(dot)com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Tim Potter <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org <mailto:tpot(at)frungy(dot)org>> writes:
>
> > Hi everyone. One item discussed at a recent meeting of the SPI
> board was
> > concerning the position of Board Advisors. Many years ago Board
> Advisors
> > served a useful purpose but have not been used in a very long
> time. It is
> > proposed in this resolution[1] to rescind the positions of SPI Board
> > Advisors.
>
> It's not clear to me why you need to rescind the resolution instead of
> just continuing to not actually appoint or seek advice from existing
> appointees.  What's the problem you're actually trying to solve?
>
> Bdale
> -------------- next part --------------
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> Name: signature.asc
> Type: application/pgp-signature
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 01:19:03 +0200
> From: Martin Michlmayr <tbm(at)cyrius(dot)com <mailto:tbm(at)cyrius(dot)com>>
> To: Bdale Garbee <bdale(at)gag(dot)com <mailto:bdale(at)gag(dot)com>>
> Cc: spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> <mailto:spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org>, Tim Potter
> <tpot(at)frungy(dot)org <mailto:tpot(at)frungy(dot)org>>
> Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
>         advisors
> Message-ID: <20191209231903(dot)GB29219(at)jirafa(dot)cyrius(dot)com
> <mailto:20191209231903(dot)GB29219(at)jirafa(dot)cyrius(dot)com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> * Bdale Garbee <bdale(at)gag(dot)com <mailto:bdale(at)gag(dot)com>> [2019-12-09
> 15:59]:
> > It's not clear to me why you need to rescind the resolution
> instead of
> > just continuing to not actually appoint or seek advice from existing
> > appointees.  What's the problem you're actually trying to solve?
>
> Make sure reality is reflected.
>
> The annual report lists the advisors, but they haven't been consulted
> in years, so imho it makes sense to reflect that.  It also creates
> more balance between projects (why is the Debian project leader always
> an advisor?)
>
> (For the record, I'm not on the board and can't speak for SPI.  But I
> brought this up when I was on the board and had the action item to
> write a resolution, which unfortunately I never did.)
> --
> Martin Michlmayr
> https://www.cyrius.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 20:12:04 -0500
> From: Filipus Klutiero <chealer(at)gmail(dot)com <mailto:chealer(at)gmail(dot)com>>
> To: spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org
> <mailto:spi-general(at)lists(dot)spi-inc(dot)org>
> Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board
>         advisors
> Message-ID: <f2696ab9-4131-e1a3-ad1f-5851abf7ab16(at)gmail(dot)com
> <mailto:f2696ab9-4131-e1a3-ad1f-5851abf7ab16(at)gmail(dot)com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi,
>
> Le 2019-12-09 ? 18:19, Martin Michlmayr a ?crit?:
> > * Bdale Garbee <bdale(at)gag(dot)com <mailto:bdale(at)gag(dot)com>>
> [2019-12-09 15:59]:
> >> It's not clear to me why you need to rescind the resolution
> instead of
> >> just continuing to not actually appoint or seek advice from
> existing
> >> appointees.  What's the problem you're actually trying to solve?
> > Make sure reality is reflected.
> >
> > The annual report lists the advisors, but they haven't been
> consulted
> > in years, so imho it makes sense to reflect that.
>
>
> I find it quite natural in a mostly open project like this one that
> advisors are not explicitly consulted. I would not infer from a
> presence
> in such an SPI advisor list that a person is explicitly consulted.
>
>
> >    It also creates
> > more balance between projects (why is the Debian project leader
> always
> > an advisor?)
>
> I do not see balance between projects (whatever that means) as a
> goal.
> Nor would I consider gender imbalance as a problem per se. To discuss
> genders, the problem I could see is a lack of feminine presence.
> But I
> expelling productive males would be a costly solution to that, if
> it can
> be one.
>
> I never heard about advisor creating any kind of imbalance (though I
> must say I was also unaware of their existence).
>
>
> That being said, I have no strong opinion on this, though if we don't
> publish a list of current advisors, as seems to be the case, I would
> tend to support abolition.
>
> >
> > [...]
>
> --
> Filipus Klutiero
> http://www.philippecloutier.com
>
>
>
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> End of Spi-general Digest, Vol 159, Issue 2
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--
Philippe Cloutier
http://www.philippecloutier.com